Faithful to Your Family - Session 2

Introduction: Shepherding Your Family

Well, I bring you greetings from Community of Faith Bible Church, not far from here, just north of Long Beach if you were to hit the 105. Hey, I see some South Gate folks in the house! All right, I've got to follow the tradition. I don't want to break the tradition. Can everybody stand up? Now, I actually did my workout this morning—I did squats yesterday—so I'm going to give you yours.

Sit down if you're married. Okay, all right. So my talk is on family. I wanted to see how many single guys I had in the room. Can everybody stand back up again? Sit down if you only have one kid, two kids, three... okay, matching this, four, five? Yeah, I should have done the "no kid" count. Five, six, seven kids? Okay, no one with eight, huh? All right.

I'm talking about family—that's my assigned topic—so I wanted to see how many guys were single so we might be able to arrange that right afterwards. We'll see! I'm sure all of our churches have got single sisters; we might be able to work something out. No, the truth is, when I was in seminary and graduating, I was the only guy in my graduating class who wasn't married or engaged. I just told all the guys, "I'm the only guy who takes Paul seriously when he says singleness is better!"

But I do want to talk about family. It is a critical conversation that we have about family. Pastors are shepherds of God's flock, and one essential mark of being a qualified pastor is shepherding one's family well. And so, with my time and my assigned topic, I want us to ponder the question: Are the sheep in your family being faithfully shepherded?

As all these passages jumped into my mind, I'm sure that you think about them as you think about faithfully shepherding a family. But I want to take us to a text where it talks about this from a sheep's perspective, being shepherded by the Good Shepherd. I want us to look at Psalm 23. In that text, you can hear David proclaiming his responses to being shepherded by God. I know we're not perfect, brothers, but I'm assuming that if we are faithfully shepherding our families, our families should give some similar responses to what we hear from David.

I'm going to read the text. We've been praying all morning, but I'll pray as well. I'm reading out of the Christian Standard Bible, Psalm chapter 23.

The Lord is my shepherd; I have what I need. He lets me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside quiet waters. He renews my life; he leads me along the right paths for his name’s sake. Even when I go through the darkest valley, I fear no danger, for you are with me; your rod and your staff—they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Only goodness and faithful love will pursue me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord as long as I live.

— Psalm 23:1-6 (CSB)

Would you bow with me as I pray?

Father, our hearts are stirred just hearing of your great, faithful love for us, your care for us, and your leadership over us. I pray that we would reflect you well in our families and, in doing so, bless them with the blessing that you blessed us with under good shepherding. Encourage our hearts as we hear and seek to apply your word. In Christ's name I pray, amen.

The Voice of the Shepherd

When shepherding is done well, and David is shepherded well, sheep respond to their shepherd. I saw this super cool video one time and I was showing it to my wife and my family. There was a shepherd who had a bunch of visitors on his farm, and he had them call out to his sheep. The sheep were grazing, and all these people were doing these so-called flock or sheep calls, but the sheep just kept right on grazing.

After five or ten minutes of everybody calling out to the sheep, finally the shepherd called. You could see all the sheep pop up their heads, turn toward the shepherd, and they all started coming to him. No one else, none of the other calls, got a response. They responded only to the voice of the shepherd. They responded.

I want us to consider some responses that we have to God, our Shepherd, and then make the application: Are the sheep under our leadership responding in these likewise ways?

A Family Provided For

The first way is in verses 1 through 3. I read them already, so I won't read them again, but it says, "The Lord is my shepherd; I have what I need." The first response from David, a sheep under God's faithful shepherding, is that the sheep will feel provided for. The sheep will feel provided for.

I love the majestic, poetic nature of the King James, but I do think this text I just read captures it a little clearer when it says, "I have what I need." The text is simply telling us from David's voice as a proclamation: I don't lack. I never lack what is good for me.

It is not as if we can't want things. If you're single, you can want to be married. If you're married and don't have kids, you can want to have kids. If you're in an apartment, you can want to have a good apartment or a house. But the text here is simply saying—not that there's a promise you won't have any wants or that having wants is not good—it's that when God shepherds you, you have everything that's good for you. You'll never be in a season of lacking what's good for you.

And so, the text doubles down and bears down and makes clear what that means we have. In what categories and what ways? David says, "He lets me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside quiet waters." When a shepherd provides, he provides for the physical needs of his flock. He takes care. In this text, the grass is a luscious, grassy vegetation pasture, and he also gives water that is not rapidly running, but still, so that the sheep can drink. Grass and water aren't luxury wants; they are indispensable necessities. The shepherd gives us what we need.

In your house, with your kids (if you have kids) and your wife (and if you're going to be married at some point), this isn't extraordinary. This is just: shepherds provide what their flock needs.

When I got married, my wife was previously engaged. She was studying to be a doctor, and the guy she was engaged to was studying to be a lawyer. Then somehow, the Lord parted the Red Sea, and I came walking through, and all that changed. But this is how I proposed to my wife: I just said, "Honey, I may never buy you a new car. I doubt if I'll ever buy you a house—definitely not a big house. My life is going to be very hard."

When I left seminary, I planned to go right to the heart of South Central. The church I went to was one city block north of the LA riots in '92, and I moved there in '93. It was a small flock. It was a church revitalization—I think they had 15 adults there, and they gave me $700 a month. Some of y'all should be laughing if you know LA! $700 a month, that was it. So I had to do a little tent-making.

I told her, "I'm not trying to make money. I have no ambition to make money. I just want to be in the city and serve the city well. Will you marry me?" That was my romantic proposal. Fortunately, she didn't laugh like you all just did. She said yes.

With that $700 a month, I got a little part-time job working at FedEx, and we had a grand total of $24,000 a year. And we never missed a meal. I have six kids; we've never missed a meal. Now, God has blessed me with a house now and more, but God just did that. With $24,000 a year, God just blessed us. There'd be times when I'm like, "Honey, why do we keep eating this?" and she'd say, "I'm shopping in the cabinets this week; we don't have any money."

But I would get a call: "Pastor Bobby, I made something for you." And I'd go by, and she'd have a tin pan of chicken, a tin pan of beef, string beans, and a salad, and she'd make a pound cake. I would feed the neighborhood. We just never lacked because God is a faithful Shepherd of his flock, and we need to do that for our families. Not extraordinary things, but just provide for what they need. Pastors need to do that.

Secondly, in this idea of the sheep feeling provided for, David also says, "He renews my life," or restores my soul. Here, David is saying that sometimes sheep can get stuck, and they can struggle under the heat and not get out of something, almost feeling like they're dying in some sense. The shepherd will pull them out, rub them, and revitalize them. The shepherd cares for a sheep enough to provide for their physical needs and also whatever spiritual or emotional needs they have. He cares for them.

It is interesting to look into the eyes of a pastor's wife. Does she look revitalized? Does she look cared for? Does she look like there is someone who is serving her and lifting the weight, as it were, so that she's not burdened and buried by it? And also our kids: do we know their wants, or better yet, do we really know their needs—their emotional needs when they are just overwhelmed? Do we know what they're afraid of and what their concerns are? Are we ministering to them biblically and spiritually, and praying in such a way where God uses us as a means of grace to encourage them? Are they depressed all the time because of the weight and care of the world, and are we standing in the gap, encouraging them and helping them?

Shepherding well means that you're doing that, just as God encourages us through our seasons of despair, despondency, and depression. God encourages us in all kinds of ways, but this first response is simply that sheep should feel provided for when they're being faithfully shepherded. David did. We have this beautiful song that we can sing because of that.

I was just wondering: what song do our wives and our kids sing? What song do you want your potential future wife or kids to sing? They should just sing the song, "There is a shepherd. God, I thank God that there's a shepherd in my house, a faithful one who is providing for our needs." A wife should just delight in the fact that her husband leads and blesses her and her kids.

A Family Led and Protected

But not only are physical and emotional needs provided for, the psalm goes on in verse 3 to show that sheep under a faithful shepherd should also feel like they're being led. That's what David writes, extols, and testifies to when he says, "He leads me beside quiet waters. He renews my life, and he leads me along the right paths for his name’s sake."

We have heard traditionally the idea of righteousness in this context, but in this context, he's not talking about theological justification. It's a song about shepherds and sheep, so I would say "the right paths" is a clear and helpful translation. Here, the text is saying the shepherd leads me. God leads us. I'm not charismatic, so I'm not saying with an audible voice, but God prompts us; God directs us. That's how we get to the church that we're at and know we're in the will of God—because God literally leads, prompts, and directs us. He's not passive, letting us try to figure out everything on our own.

And what faithful shepherds will do in the home is that they will lead. They will lead. They will lead their flock. They will lead their wives. They will lead their kids. They will lead their families.

You've heard this said before: which direction do dead fish in a river go? Only and always with the current. Our families will only go with the current of the world—whatever the latest fashion is, whatever the latest trend is, whatever the latest style is—unless there is someone leading them in God's ways. That will be against the current, which means you'll have to stand up and take unpopular positions—not a few times, but in this anti-Christian culture we live in, all the time. You'll just simply have to stand up and lead. You have to lead. You have to lead not once, not twice, but you just have to lead.

It just gives comfort to a wife to know, "My husband is a leader; he's going to lead." This is what it sounds like in the house, if it's vague to you: when there's a problem in the marriage or there's a problem with the kids, you're not passively sitting back letting your wife fix it. You're using this specific kind of language: "Honey, let's do this. Let's do this with the kids. Let's do that regarding this." You see the problems, and you're thinking through them biblically, praying on your knees through the Word of God, saying, "This is what we need to be doing to address that." You're leading. You're not following and waiting for her to come up with some idea, or just letting the kids do anything and everything.

You're taking the initiative by God's grace. You know that you're there with divine authority. There's only one authority in the universe—God's—and he mediates it through the husband and the father in the home. You're not afraid to use God's authority in a right, loving way to lead your home. So you're not telling your kids, "Please take out the trash, please do this." You have authority; you can tell them what to do. And so you lead. God leads. Faithful shepherds protect and they lead, and the sheep know it.

Thirdly, a third response we have here from David, not only proclaiming that he is provided for and led, but this next point comes right out of the text: sheep will feel protected. It says in verses 4 and 5:

Even when I go through the darkest valley, I fear no danger, for you are with me; your rod and your staff—they comfort me.

That's a very real, literal reading, and I'm fine with that. Contrary to what you would expect when you go through a dark valley, David says, "For me, under God's faithful shepherding, I fear no danger." He's talking about a shepherd in Israel going through these valleys where you have mountains casting shadows around certain bends. Because they can get so dark, that's where robbers would hide and jump out to kill a shepherd and steal the sheep.

David said even when I go there—where you would expect naturally not just an irrational fear, but real danger... When a dog is charging at you and his tail is not wagging, you should be afraid. That's not irrational fear. David is not talking about irrational fear here; he's talking about real, potential dangers that shepherds face going through the darkest valleys, and that danger could be death. But contrary to that expectation, David just says, "I'm not afraid, for you are with me."

Dad's here. Dad's here, we're going to be okay. To your kids, you look like a hero. You're big. I'm not even that tall, but for my kids when they were little, I looked big. You're like the hero: "Dad is here."

We had a house fire one time at midnight. My dryer caught on fire, and we all got out of the house. My wife said, "Where's William?" I ran back into my house. I had to crawl into my house because of the smoke, and I dragged my son out, carried him out. We lost the house at midnight. I had my niece and my nephew with me; it was eight kids in the house. 'n My niece and my nephew had nightmares about being in that fire for a long time. My kids, they thought when we were staying in hotels we were like at Disney World on a vacation or something! I'm like, "Hey, this is not fun, we are homeless, y'all! We don't have a house!" And they're like, "Woohoo, let's go in the pool!" They were having a grand old time. The reason why they didn't have a care in the world is because they thought, "Dad is going to fix it. Dad will take care of it. Dad will work it out. Dad is with us." My nephew and niece didn't have their fathers with them.

You are a blessing in your home when you provide and when you lead, but also when you protect. To protect means you know that there are dangers for your wife and for your kids, and you're protecting them. Can you give us a list of those dangers? What dangers are your kids faced with? What dangers are your wife under?

Their phones are a danger. Video games—some of them have a browser where you can get to and find pornography—they are a potential danger. Social media is a real danger for your daughters and sons. They are real dangers. There are dangers for your wife. Are the expectations your church puts on her too much? Is she supposed to be the perfect mother, the perfect hostess, the perfect this, and the perfect that? And are your expectations fair? They're real dangers; our enemy makes sure of it.

As a pastor, one thing that grieves me is that I signed up for all this. I responded to the call and said, "Here am I, send me." My kids didn't. But we are all on the front line. And so, when Satan attacks Job, he attacks him through his kids. Your kids are on the front line, and they need a shepherd in the house who is protecting them. That's what faithful shepherds do: they provide, they lead, and they protect. That's who we are. That's just who we are.

A Family Pursued by Love

When we are faithful, the being and the doing have to come together. We are something, and because we are men—which means by God's design we function in headship roles in our homes—then that means we need to lead, provide, and protect. That's what faithful shepherds do. That's who we ought to be.

We don't get the chance in 1 Timothy 3 to just say, "Hey, I've assessed myself and I meet all the qualifications." No, the church has to be able to look at you as you relate to your wife and your kids. Your wife has to say something, too, about the kind of leadership you provide in the home. Your kids have to have something to say about the kind of leadership you provide in your home. Do they say, "Oh yeah, Dad's not perfect, but oh yeah, he's faithful. He faithfully provides, he faithfully leads, and he faithfully protects us. He listens to us, he knows our concerns and our fears, and then he responds and he protects"?

And then I love this next one in verse 5 and 6:

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Only goodness and faithful love will pursue me all the days of my life...

I do love the King James: "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life." Here we come to the heart of what really moves and stirs our faithful Shepherd: the sheep should feel loved. Shepherds love sheep. They love sheep.

Sheep aren't the brightest animals. Sheep will do all kinds of crazy stuff. I saw this one video of a shepherd pulling a sheep out of this hole, and it was so happy to get out of the hole that it bounded down the land and ran right into another one! I just started laughing. I'm like, "That's exactly what I do! God gets me out of one hole, and I jump right into the next."

But God loves us. It is a faithful love. He says here, "My head is anointed with oil; my cup overflows." It's like a kid when you're giving them juice. Mommy gets out some juice, and you start pouring them juice, and when it gets to the top, they just snatch the cup back. "That's enough!" and they snatch the cup back, and the juice is spilling all over the counter. Here David says, "God, my cup is already full. You keep pouring more and more blessings into my cup. It's overflowing, God. That's how good you are to me."

And the hook is this: it's because of his chesed love, his faithful, faithful covenant love. David says it pursues me. I can't get away from it. God chases me with love.

I pastor six kids, and I remember one season with one of my kids, and it was hard. She was pulling away. (I'm being recorded, so I can't say a lot. I don't want my six kids to figure out, "Oh, he's talking about me again!" So I talk about all of them.) But anyway, one in particular I'm thinking of at this time, she was pulling away from me and her mom, going and doing things that weren't ideal. I just told her, I'm like, "Honey, I'm never going to give up on our relationship. By God's grace, I'm always going to be here, and we're going to get through this together."

And then what she did—and the Lord did it... I mean, parenting is grace. We can't save our kids. We can't pick the day and hour our kids get saved. We're just a means of grace to gospelize them, pray for them, and love them. As we do that, God does use that means of grace. We can parent with hope. Just be faithful and just trust God; he will work it for our good and his glory in your parenting.

But in this particular case, God just marvelously rescued and transformed my daughter. And so, she made these two... I don't know what to call it, but they're hanging on my walls. It's like this big, circular wood piece. For me, she put all these words, and it had an anchor on it. She said, "When I wanted to really go deeper into the world, it was like God used you like an anchor, Dad. God wouldn't let me go. The things you taught me, the things you said, were like an anchor." Tears were streaming down her face just saying that.

We are blessed to be shepherded by God, to turn around and shepherd a family. Part of our shepherding is that we provide, we lead, we protect, and then we love. We just love. We've heard allusions to or a short exposition of 1 Corinthians 13. We just love. You just won't accomplish the will of God through anger. You just love.

1 Corinthians says that in chapter 16, and at all times, we just need to love our wives and our kids. It's in the Bible for a reason, brothers, when it says, "Do not be embittered against your wives." We are sinners, and sin, as we heard in Mark's sermon, is self-centered. We are self-centered sinners; we want what we want. Walking in the flesh, we know enough Bible that we can justify all of our expectations and desires, and live selfishly not for our wives but for ourselves. Not getting what we want, we can get really embittered.

My co-pastor and I help each other a lot. We'll really just push each other: "Are you having another grown-man tantrum? Like, you didn't get what you want, so you feel justified now to walk around your house like an ogre, or just pull back and give everybody the silent treatment?"

But the Bible is clear, brothers, that the way that God wants us to lead in our homes is through love. Just love. When someone's drowning, you try to rescue them. And you know what they'll do when you try to rescue them? They'll hit you, they'll kick, they're panicking. They will drown both of you if you let them. You could just say, "All right, fool, I tried to save you, I'm going to let you drown." Or you can keep trying to figure out, "They're panicking; how can I help this person so they don't drown?"

In your house, as you lead and shepherd, you just love. You're loving sinners, and of course they're going to sin against you. Of course they're not always going to respond back well. But you just love, the way God loves us. While you were yet a sinner, God loved you. And so we just shepherd like our Shepherd shepherds us. He's a faithful Shepherd, and we need to endeavor to be faithful shepherds, and we need to love.

It's the kindness of God that led you to repentance. One time, with one of my kids, the way we disciplined them was to send them to my room and give them some time to think. I told them, "I want you to really think about what you did, and if it's sin, you need to confess that to God and ask God for forgiveness." So they'd be in the room, and then I would come in. (It gives me time to cool off, too!)

I came in, and I had my little paddle in my hand, ready to spank her. For one of my kids, I said, "Honey, did you pray?" And she said, "Yes, Daddy, I prayed that God would help you to have mercy on me!" I'm looking at this little person like... and that's what you're shepherding for: that they would want mercy, that they know they don't merit love, that they don't deserve it. That's how we're gospelizing them, and we need to love them the way God has loved us. That's how he's loved us: out of mercy and lovingkindness.

This is the kind of shepherd we need to be in the home. That's what a faithful shepherd looks like. It's the kind of guy you want pastoring in a church.

And then lastly, verse 6, in response to all that God has done for David—providing, leading, protecting, and loving—David just says, "And I will dwell in the house of the Lord as long as I live." He is responding to God's love: "God, I want to love you. In response to all your mercies, I want to worship you. In response to God being with me, I want to be with you."

Brothers, if you faithfully shepherd your home, your family won't want to just lock themselves in their bedrooms when you come home and stay on their phones. They will want to be around Dad. They'll want to be around. Your wife will want you there. Our loving them and our faithfully shepherding them becomes a glue, as it were, linking us in a relationship with them.

And that's what we're striving for: it's relationship. It's relationship through love, and we have the privilege of securing those relationships by providing, by leading, by protecting, and by loving. When we do that, Paul makes the argument from the lesser to the greater: a man who is living like that—not perfectly, but that's his pattern in his home—that's the man you want leading in the church.

We need to just assess that in our own hearts, even right now. Am I a faithful shepherd in my own home? Just find some accountability. I'm not talking about false guilt, but just real, honest assessment. You can be encouraged by reading a text like this: "By God's grace, that's what I'm endeavoring to do and be in my home." And if you're falling short, I thank God that he does all these things to us: he leads us, he loves us, and he can redirect you. But this is what we're striving for: to be a faithful shepherd like the Good Shepherd is to us. Amen, brothers.

Panel Discussion: Shepherding Children Through the Stages of Life

Moderator: That's it! So, we're talking on the subject of the family. All three of you have children that are now adults and out in the world. So, I want to take a moment and kind of walk through the different phases of your children's lives and different lessons that you might have learned during those times. Let's start from ages zero to ten. Any lessons or reflections from parenting that age?

Bobby Scott: One of the areas that I really felt I failed at was really appreciating how different all of my kids were. I just was going to deal with them the way my dad dealt with me. Some of my kids had real tender consciences, and basically just a talk was enough. My sisters, when they talk about me growing up, they say, "Boy, you got a whipping every day of your life!"

I'd be outside, and my dad would say, "When it gets dark, come inside." That man was specific: "When the streetlights come on, you need to come in." The streetlights would come on, and I'm having fun, and I'm like, "I'm just going to get a whipping today anyway," so I would just stay out and keep playing. Then I'd hear this, "Bobby!" and I'm like, "Oh!" Then I'm terrified, right?

So, I just thought, "I'll just whip my kids a lot." But for some of them, it was just... and I wish I had been more sensitive. I mean, not in an abusive way. We had real clear boundaries when they sinned and when they crossed certain lines, but I wish I had been much more conscious of their unique personalities when they were little. I mean, I realized it after a while, but I think I wish I'd noticed that sooner.

N.: I don't know, I'm thinking about like when our kids were young like that, what an amazing opportunity it was to just have conversations about theological things in the world around them in ways that I think sometimes surprise you.

The illustration I'll give you is, I remember—I think it was Noah, my third kid—and he and my younger son were driving somewhere. We were just playing that game where he'll say, "Hey Dad, look at those clouds. They look like Snoopy or something," you know? And I'll say, "So, yeah, who made those clouds?" and he'll say, "Oh, God did," you know? So we're playing the "God did" game. "How about those trees over there? Who made that?" "Oh, God did!" right? So we're just pointing out stuff in nature.

Then he'll take over, and he goes, "And who made that car over there, Dad?" and I'm like, "Um... I mean, God did, kind of?" right? So I'm thinking that through and just the reality of walking through like explaining the world in real theological terms. I said, "Well, human beings made that car, but you know, they made no part of it from themselves like out of nothing. They had to take stuff that God placed in the world, and they make metal out of this stuff that's in the ground, and they make rubber out of stuff that comes from trees."

You know what I mean? And you're just explaining to them, and you're building a theology with them that I think is a precious time, you know? And it's one where, in your busyness, if you fail to—and I feel like that's where sometimes I did fail—you don't have that time just for those lengthy, somewhat ridiculous explanations. You miss those opportunities to just talk into their lives and give them what I never grew up with. I had an unbelieving father, a decent man trying to do his best, a little severe, but I didn't grow up in a Christian home with a Christian worldview and explanations of everything that came back to the Lord. Yeah, man, you have the blessing of that, and so that's a very advantageous time of their lives.

Mark Dever: Just similar to what has been said, we have two kids, and the two could not have been more different. Connie and I both grew up in non-Christian homes, but we were both pretty good kids. Our eldest child was, I think like Bobby, needed a whipping every day of her life! It was like World War II just to get her to stay on her bed when she was two years old. I mean, just everything.

Then our second child, Nathan, came along, and he was just incredibly compliant. It was very challenging, especially for Connie, who spent more time always with the kids. I'm at the time doing a PhD, busy doing other things. But for her to kind of retool entirely... It's hard for her as a compliant child herself dealing with our first child who's very non-compliant, and then the second one is just like as compliant as any person has ever been. We had to try to love the Lord, love them, and just kind of reorient for dealing with each one uniquely.

But certainly, what N. is saying is true: it's a great time for putting truths in their lives. We got a call when we lived in England one night from a couple of different parents: "Did you hear what your daughter did at school today?" "No." This was when she was six or seven years old. A teacher had been in a general assembly—the principal of the whole school... It was a state school in England, and the Headmaster had said, "Now we know, of course, children, there are many gods, don't we?" talking in a religious assembly with different religions involved in the school—Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Our daughter just stands up in the middle of several hundred kids and says, "No! There is only one God!"

I mean, she was just repeating the catechism answers, you know? Amen! Now, you know, that daughter today does not claim to be a Christian. She's never claimed to be a Christian. So we were putting this in her mind, and she was hearing it. Now, you know, the Lord's not done yet, and we've had encouraging texts from her even in the last month. But, you know, it is a time when we can deposit things in their minds in a way that we trust the Lord will bring to fruition decades later. Amen.

Shepherding Through the Teenage Years

Moderator: The teenage years—any lessons or reflections on them?

Bobby Scott: Yeah, I would say, first of all, just try to remember your teenage years—yours, or mine! And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, right? They're our kids, so just keep your doctrine of sin in place. Sinners sin. And God just pursued us. Just think of what Jesus does in the Incarnation in Philippians chapter 2; it's amazing.

Just don't over-respond. De-escalate. Don't raise your voice and yell and talk down to them. Be consistent. Don't be afraid to discipline them, but you have to teach well, and don't make yourself... don't make everything about you and take it personally. You're concerned about their soul and how they respond to God, but you have to lead.

I mean, cell phones were becoming really popular when my kids were becoming teenagers. I just didn't like them. I was just really concerned about them. And so I waited till they were mature enough, and then when they were mature enough, I just set simple principles like: we're stewards, we're managers of things, and I'm paying for the phone anyway, so you're managing this thing.

There's this idea, "I deserve privacy." Well, God sees everything! So I would just say, "All right, time for me to review your phone." We'd sit down, and I would just go through their songs and lyrics. I'd say, "What do these lyrics say? What does this mean?" I'm just wanting, as best I can, to use the law in a lawful way to let them know how much mercy and grace they need, and how God offers that alone in Christ.

So you have to be brave. If they want a phone, they have to have a filter on it. If my kid had a phone today, they would have a filter on it; that wouldn't even be negotiable. You just have to lead when they're teenagers. De-escalate, and then make sure you're feeding the relationship. Take your daughters out on dates, work out with your sons. You've got to hook into their conscience. Satan is going to tell them the same thing he told Eve about God: "You can't trust him. He's not good." Expose Satan as a liar. Let your kids know, "My dad loves me," and just really invest in that relationship.

It will go a long way if you do have a rebellious type of a child. You can only do so much. I mean, some of the most faithful men in the Bible had some of the most ungodly kids. So, you know, God is sovereign. Just use all the means of grace God gives you when they're teenagers.

N.: Thanks, Bobby. I enjoyed those teenage years with the kids because there's this transition. I have this talk with our youth ministry when kids are coming from the elementary school age into the youth ministry with their parents at the first parent meeting as they're starting the new year. I'll let them know, "Hey, your child at grade six is about to enter into their teenage years, and then by the time they graduate from our youth ministry, they're going to be adults out in college and probably living outside the home."

I thought Jonathan Leeman's book Authority was so good on that—the idea of command authority transitioning into counsel authority, meaning that there's a transition. This is what I try to tell the parents: in your authority relationship over them, you are transitioning from "You don't do that because I told you not to" to "You shouldn't do that, and you should trust that I have some wisdom and some love for you, and this is why I'm saying that."

There's got to be a transition, and I think if we can shepherd that transition well... None of us will do that perfectly, but I appreciate what you were saying, Bobby, just to show them love, show them grace. If you help them transition that part well, I think it preserves that relationship. So even if they're not walking with the Lord, there's still that relationship, you know? They're still going to engage with you. They're not just waiting to flee.

I don't think it's a measure of me and Kathy and our success, but our kids have all professed faith in their teenage years. Praise the Lord for that. They have all of them... My third one is about to start college, but when they apply to college, they all want to stay as close to home as they can, and I'm thankful for that. I don't think it's because I'm a fantastic dad or anything, but I think they realize there's some security in our household and our relationship, and they like this. And they love the church, right?

So, man, if we can help them as they develop into kind of self-expressing, individualistic, young adult human beings, if we can help them to see the value of their home and of all the blessings that God has given them in terms of their church, I think we do really well. We'll do better than most, and that's all we try to do—again, imperfectly. If you ask my kids, "Who is the godliest man you know?" they're probably not going to say Dad, right? They're going to say maybe it's Mark Dever or Bobby Scott, and I'm okay with that. I don't need to be the godliest man; I just want them to know I love Jesus. And I also don't want them to love Jesus or like Jesus just because I love Jesus, you know what I mean? I want them to love him independently of me. So, I don't know if that helps you or not, but I was just saying generally, that's kind of how I think of our authority.

Mark Dever: I agree with the things that have been said. Just two things to add: Number one, baptize them later, not earlier. Amen! You're pastors, so it's better to baptize them as a ten-year-old believer than as a five-year-old believer. It's better to baptize them as a fifteen-year-old believer than a ten-year-old believer. Probably better to baptize them as a twenty-year-old believer than a fifteen-year-old believer, though by the time they're in public schools, if they've been in public schools the whole time, then maybe I'd be more flexible. But I would just say, the more you can do an adult baptism—even if it's a young adult—the more I think it will serve the purpose of baptism and help them in their own lives.

Many Christian parents have shot themselves in the foot by baptizing somebody at fourteen, and then by the time they're twenty-one, the person is not a believer at all, and yet the whole church has publicly affirmed that they're a Christian. So if you would just wait—like Baptists used to be very good at—until they show fruit as an adult and choose to go that direction, it's healthier for everybody. That's number one.

Number two, it's kind of been said by both the brothers, but just to share our situation: our kids are thirty-four and thirty-nine. Neither one of them would currently be a member of Capitol Hill Baptist Church—I think that's a safe way I can say it publicly. But in both cases, my wife and I, both together and individually, have good relationships with them. I would just say: play the long game. You know, that goes down with what Bobby said about de-escalating. Just play the long game. You're in there for an immovable, unique relationship they will have with nobody else.

Do not get worried. God is sovereign and good. He's put them in your home for a reason. Love them, be the ones that reflect God's kind of love to them, and trust him. Privately, I could tell you encouraging stories that I'm not going to tell publicly, but yeah, you can pray for us as we continue to play the long game.

Parenting Adult Children

Moderator: Bobby, N., any comments or observations about adulthood? You both have kids that are out of the house as well, right?

Bobby Scott: Yeah, following what N. said, your relationship changes. I remember when I was eighteen and had my driver's license. When I first got my driver's license, I remember walking to the car with my mom, and she walked to the passenger side. I said, "Oh!" and she was just affirming her son had become a man, and I was going to start driving.

I just say, validate the manhood in your sons, and do it younger, too. We have this whole adolescence thing where they're like adults but yet we don't give them adult-like responsibility; we treat them like kids. But I would just say, really start to validate them. Even when my son pushes back a little bit... I hear him talking to his mom a certain way, and I'm like, "Son, I really appreciate the fact that you're becoming a man and you want to make some independent decisions, but you have to be respectful to your mother. This is how I'm going to teach you. This is how you need to talk to her when you're feeling like you want to make a different decision. 'Mom, there's a way you need to go about doing that.'" But, you know, they're still in my house. Well, maybe... but yeah, your role changes. They're adults, and you have to treat them like adults.

And it's fun! I mean, like N. said, just for me to have conversations with my adult kids... I really enjoy my kids. But don't treat them like kids when they're adults; just respect them. They're going to make decisions you wouldn't make. If they ask you for your counsel, give it, but don't push them away by making every time they are around Dad turn into a sermon about how they're wrong in this, that, or the other. They'll just stop calling and being around. Just play the long game.

N.: Thanks. I feel like how you shepherd your adult kids is usually indicative of how you view and shepherd most of your adult congregants, you know? Because it's easy to kind of look at your members or even your adult kids and think, "Oh, they just don't have any wisdom, they should just listen to me," right?

But I'm always telling my kids, "Listen, there are two ways you're going to get wisdom. One is you're going to hear wisdom from the Lord and from people that are in authority over you, and you're just going to absorb it, take it to heart, and find protection. Or, you're going to make all those bad mistakes, and the Lord sovereignly will demonstrate to you why this was wisdom in the first place. So you could hear it and obey and walk well, or you could just get slammed and you will discover yourself that the Lord has created this world in such a way that your wisdom might come from the backhand!"

All that to say, I think that relationship, that engagement, and that opportunity to speak into their lives is earned through all the younger years as they're growing up in your home. And so I'm thankful for the relationship I have with my kids, and I give them independence.

I love that, Bobby, that whole idea of letting them be men. I don't know if a lot of you guys... there's a bunch of Christian men in the room. I don't know if your parents walked you through some kind of a sex talk at some point. In our family, we did that. Focus on the Family has one of those courses called Passport to Purity. Have any of you guys gone through that with your sons? No? Well, we're old now—he said we're old! But I mean, that was a rite of passage. All I was going to say is that was a rite of passage where we're talking about sex, sexuality, and what it means to be a man. And I think from that day on in particular, it kind of set our relationship in a different way, where we're speaking as men to men. Again, they're still foolish; they do dumb stuff all the time, and I'm glad to point it out to them. But yeah, there needs to be some rite of passage. I think it's encouraging for them, especially for your boys, so that they learn to become men.

When Children Struggle with the Faith

Moderator: I think sometimes the reason why we might be tempted to baptize sooner is an anxiety about our kids and wanting to make sure that they're well. All three of you brothers have pastored and parented your children through various stages of their spiritual walks and wrestling. Any encouragement for brothers that are parenting kids who might be struggling with their faith, or who may have thought they were Christians and have since walked away from the Lord? Any encouragement for them?

Mark Dever: I think one of the best things I ever said to my daughter was when she was about fifteen and she was just showing no interest in spiritual things. She was very obedient, always came to church, did exactly what we expected of her, but she kind of has my personality and she was always extremely straightforward. She was just not that interested in God. I don't think she ever disbelieved in him; I think she more didn't like him, you know? I think she just didn't want... I don't think she was ever going to argue with Dad because she was pretty scared Dad was right, and I think she's still in that position. Though these days, I think she's probably more okay with it.

But I just had a conversation with her when she was about fifteen. I said, "Annie, you need to know that I'm your dad, and I love you. And I'm always going to be your dad, whether you believe in God or not. Just... that will not change our relationship. I love you, and I'm always going to be your dad." She just began to cry. She had never told me, and has never told me, she didn't believe in God. I think she does. But I was just separating out the role she'd always seen her dad in and the relationship that I have with her in a way that she appreciated. I think, trust, and pray it is still bearing fruit.

N.: Yeah, there is especially for you guys that are the pastors, there is that kind of odd pressure, right? It's not just that you're a Christian dad, but there is this pressure that I think even your children feel: that if they are not walking in faith, if they are not exemplary, then they are kind of tarnishing their dad's reputation in his church. We've got to do our best to protect them from that being a motivation for anything.

Brothers, if you have that as a motivation, if you feel like, "I need to make sure that my kids walk by faith so that I demonstrate my shepherding ability," that's something you've got to divorce from yourself. Because theologically, as you walk that through, you recognize what Mark said earlier: God is sovereign, and we're playing the long game.

And I think it is so good that you spent time to point out to your teenage daughter, "Listen, our relationship is our relationship, and God has given us this relationship, period. You don't need to perform or do something to make me look good." I think I've had different talks that are something like that with each of my kids. Some of them are so compliant, they just want to be good, and I've feared that maybe they're just trying hard because Dad's the pastor of the church and they don't want to make him look bad. And then my boys are more like, "Oh, thanks Dad, I do whatever I want anyway!" and it's like, okay, well we've got other issues. But yeah, I appreciate that.

Bobby Scott: I think we would interpret Titus 1:6 similarly: "An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, with faithful children who are not accused of wildness or rebellion." We explain this passage not to say, in 1 Timothy 3, that an elder's children have to all be saved—that's God. Titus 3:5 says God saved us; we don't. God has to save, and we pray for that.

But I do think we need to lead in such a way where God uses us as a means of restraining grace in the lives of our children so they're not rebellious and wild. There will certainly be seasons when you're really on your knees battling for them, because they could be pushing all kinds of boundaries. You could go through seasons like that, and that's really hard.

John came and helped me with one of my sons. I have six kids: four professing believers, two aren't. One that's not a professing believer—COVID really got him. He just didn't want to go back to school, he was struggling with grades, and he was really in danger of not graduating. I was exhorting him to finish school, and he just wasn't. And I'm like, oh, it was bad. I'm like, "Oh honey, I'm really hoping I don't hit the nuclear option."

In our culture, it's different. In the Black culture I grew up with, when your dad tells you to do something like that and you don't do it, it's like, "Okay, well, get out of my house then!" I'm praying, "Please don't make me throw this boy out of the house!" It was serious. It was like I'm really praying, and oh, it was hard. Godly men came alongside of me and helped me, and God just gave us a breakthrough. I think a month before school was over, he started doing his work and he graduated. I'm so glad that God just helped me play the long game. I like that phrase, Mark, because we have a great relationship now, but it was so tense back then.

Sometimes you can hit that spot with your teenage kids, and they're being foolish and rebellious. They'll see it on the other side of the fight, whatever is over, but in the midst of it, don't make it about you. Let them know you're concerned about their soul and them, and you just have to really humble yourself. You may go through some hard seasons. You need to lead in such a way where it doesn't throw fuel on their rebellion and cause them to go wild. So, you may go through some hard seasons, brothers.

Protecting Families from Church Expectations

Moderator: Thank you for that, Bobby. Picking up on something you said, as a pastor's kid, even without my father saying anything, there's an internal pressure that just exists from knowing that your father is in a public position, especially one of spiritual authority. Any advice for these brothers as we think about protecting our families from expectations that certain church members may have, and how they ought to behave or how their family ought to be run?

N.: I don't know if I have any particular wisdom to that, except what we're talking about: speak openly to the kids. When I got engaged to Kathy, we were serious in our dating relationship, and I thought, "We're moving towards marriage." One of the things that we talked about if she was going to marry me—because we both grew up in a Korean-American church culture, like your dad's church, right? And in a lot of ethnic churches, there is this strong sense of... I mean, Koreans have a term for the pastor's wife, Samo-nim. It's not a biblical term; it's just an honorific term that sounds like a church office, kind of like you have all these different officers.

And so she had this expectation: "What do you expect me to be as your wife?" I said, "Hon, you can do as much ministry—in terms of discipling ladies and so on, she can't preach—or you could do none of it. I'm not asking you to marry me into ministry; I'm just asking you to marry me, the Christian man who is going to do his best to provide for you."

Some kind of approach like that with the kids is helpful. I think that's that conversation that Mark was saying that he had with Annie. We're just trying to let them know, "Listen, I know we live in a fishbowl—people are watching us—but I just want you to know that at the end of the day, you're just a kid and you're going to do stupid things. And I'm going to let you know that was stupid, but I'm still your dad and I still love you, and we are going to fail and succeed at stuff together. We're going to be okay because I love you."

You have to keep reaffirming that because, again, there's that expectation from others: "Wow, you guys do that too? But your dad is the pastor!" It's like, "Yeah, and they're still sinners, and so am I," right? We have to protect them the best we can by setting expectations.

And I think to the congregation, too—at members' meetings, etc.—if you're talking about different things, just let them know that you're a Christian dad doing the best you can, you hope your kids are okay, and if you have to talk to the youth pastor sometimes because your kids misbehave, have those conversations not as their boss but as a parent. I think it comes a lot with our own expectations of how we're going to try to shepherd our families through that. That's good.

Mistakes, Successes, and Schedule Boundaries

Moderator: We talked a lot about parenting our kids. Bobby, you asked a very clear question: "Does your wife feel revitalized?" That's super helpful. Any lessons, mistakes, or encouragements in loving your wife well?

Bobby Scott: I don't think we have enough time, guys! Oh yeah. When... actually, part of my proposal, I think I said this too (I'm trying to remember): I told her that I was going to make her cry more than anybody has ever made her cry before, but I'm going to endeavor to be her best friend and closest friend. You're just going to hurt your wife, guys. Yeah, you're just going to hurt your wife a lot. She knows you better than anybody, so she sees all of your failures, and you just have to be humble.

What I try to do, as we have communion once a month, is to have time before our communion service with my wife and my kids and just ask them if I had sinned against them in some way that I hadn't confessed. And just listen. Don't get defensive; just really listen. Give your family the opportunity to say where you've failed them, and have those conversations with your wife where you just really listen. "How is it going? How's..."

And preparing for this, actually, I was asking my kids, "I've never been fathered by Pastor Bobby Scott—how has it been? I'm talking about family, what do you think?" I was trying to get my kids to tell me all this negative stuff I've done. But yeah, you just have to really give your family a chance. Your relationship will be more intimate if you're humble and transparent and deal with sin by confessing and repenting. It'll just be a better relationship. So give them that opportunity, the freedom to do that.

N.: Can I say one thing that's very particular? It's a lesson that took me years to understand, and I know we have some sisters in the room, so I mean no offense. I know that's not a good way to start this, but... I recall at some point, years into our marriage, Kathy sharing with me how she's going through this and she's struggling with this, etc., and I'm trying to give her advice, right?

Then I remember she looked at me and said, "Listen, I'm just trying to share with you what's going on." I couldn't compute this because I'm like, "Yeah, I know. You're telling me what you're having struggles with, and I'm trying to help fix it! Wait, isn't that what we do? I don't understand this." And she's trying to explain to me, "No, no, I'm just sharing with you. Your role is to just listen." And I go, "And just do nothing? Say nothing? Is this a secret?"

Mark Dever: We had this exact conversation our first year of marriage. It was hugely enlightening for me.

N.: Isn't that an interesting thing? As men, I think we just naturally think, if we're having a conversation and I say, "Hey Bobby, I've been going through this and ministry's been like this," I think I'm expecting you to say something back, not just listen. But brothers, if you are newly married, hoping to get married, or engaged, take that advice from older Christian men: there are some things where your gift is to be a better listener than to give advice. And that's something that's so helpful across the board for all of our ladies.

Bobby Scott: Probably never good in those kind of conversations with your wife to call her childish.

Mark Dever: Yeah, probably not helpful. Not helpful.

Moderator: How'd that go, Mark?

Mark Dever: I made that mistake once!

Moderator: Something all of us struggle with is just the constant demands of ministry. You don't have to work hard to fill up your schedule pretty quickly. So, what are ways that you guys have intentionally carved out time in your schedules? Any insights from that in trying to prioritize your family?

Bobby Scott: It hasn't worked legalistically, but date nights—we still have date nights. There will be... we'll go sometimes a couple of months or a season where it falls off of our calendar. We've been married thirty years. But yeah, you've just got to, and that's important. Keep Tuesday night clear, or Friday night, Monday night—whenever it is. Keep time on your schedule for your wife.

I don't do this well, but doing your schedules together so that you can find time, as opposed to she does her schedule, I do my schedule, and you want to connect and there's no time... You have to be pretty intentional by doing your schedules together so that you do see where you can grab a lunch together.

Mark Dever: We found physically having a calendar—opening up and looking at it with our eyes at the same time—works. I do not agree to do anything, not one minute outside of 8:30 to 5:30, apart from talking to Connie with the calendar open in front of us. And we go through that stuff pretty regularly.

Also, to help her deal with me, I told her when we first got married, "You feel free to talk to anybody in the world you want to and say anything you want about me." I give you... now, that is not a gossip card. That is not gossip. That is, you're going to need help loving me. "I trust you, I know you love me, I know you love the Lord. You say anything you want about me to anybody in the world, because you're going to need help loving me." And God bless her, she's many times told me how she appreciated that.

N.: One of my favorite things that Connie has said about you, Mark—and I love this quote—she said you are "always confident, sometimes right!" I love that. I love that, that's really good.

Mark Dever: Sadly accurate. I've owned that one myself.

Moderator: Any ways that you guys have created space for people to be able to say no to things that you'd like to do? So, like Mark, I know that you have that built into kind of your rhythms of life, that if there's ministry opportunities, other people have opportunities to reject that. I'd love to hear from all three of you brothers kind of how you implement that. How do you put safety road rails to prevent us from kind of going too far? You don't have in particular mind family with this question, right?

Moderator: No, brother.

Bobby Scott: Okay, yeah. I run my schedule by our elders. And sometimes if it's not all of them, if it's something like this on a Saturday and there's nothing on the calendar, I run it by my co-pastor, Anthony. They can tell me, "You're doing too much," or something like that.

N.: My elders, especially when I'm traveling, they have to approve that. Listen, I'm not a good example. I say yes to too many things, and I run down a little bit. I do let the elders know, but for the most part, maybe I haven't invited them to say, "Hey, you can't do that," so maybe I need to. But yeah, Kathy, my wife, is probably the only person that says, "Hey, aren't you doing too much? Maybe you shouldn't do that," right? But as I get older and it's physically more difficult, mentally more difficult, I realize I need to say no more often. But if you guys are like me, I'm just excited for opportunities and trying to be helpful, so I usually say yes to everything and then regret how bad this month is going to be or these next three weeks are going to be.

Mark Dever: And I'm too old.

N.: You're not even of a presidential age yet! You've got decades, don't be silly.

Mark Dever: Oh man. Sorry, I live on Capitol Hill, man. This is work!

We have an invitations committee. Every invitation, you have to fill out a whole bunch of stuff. It's made for people to get irritated about filling out so they won't even ask me. So then, the ones who fill it out—which all the stuff my assistant is going to have to ask anyway—he brings it to a meeting about once a month or every other month with the elders who are on staff and somebody from Nine Marks. They will have a conversation about it. I don't say anything; I just listen. They then hand me the results as their advice. The expectation is probably that I follow the advice, but it's just advice.

I then go with the open calendar and my wife, and we sit and talk about all of them. Ninety percent of the time, we agree with what they say. We will sometimes turn down one that they've encouraged me to accept, though that's pretty rare, because they say no to like 90% of the stuff. Very occasionally, Connie will ask me, "Oh, now, what did they say no to?" and I'll go through those, and she'll pick one up and say, "No, you should go do that."

So like last week, I was in Montana for the first time ever, at the Wilderness School of the Bible at a pastors' conference. I had a great time—never been there, wonderful time with about 50 pastors. That was my wife. The invitation committee had said no—this was like probably a year or a year and a half ago—and Connie, going through them, said, "No, you should go do this," you know? So, that's what it's like.

One thing we picked up from Garrett Kell at Del Ray: at a previous church I was pastoring at, at our elders' retreat, we went with our wives. We went around during dinner and asked each wife two questions: Number one, does the church give your husband enough time off? And secondly, does your husband take enough time off? One of the wives just broke down crying. Wow. It was a really, really helpful conversation, and it resulted in some drastic shifts in that brother's behavior and scheduling. So I would encourage you guys to consider doing that with you and your elders.

Moderator: Well, that's our time.

Bobby Scott: Can I say one real quick thing?

Moderator: Go for it, Bobby.

Bobby Scott: So, over the break, one of the brothers came and was sharing with us when pastors feel burnt out, or it's a real grind trying to get sermons done every week, just having boundaries period. Yeah, you need to have a Sabbath day, a day you take off. And Jesus got away. The brother was sharing with us: you need to have vacations. And yeah, some folks in your church won't like that. They think you... when I'm on vacation, they just call me anyway! But just don't answer, like, "I'm on vacation." But yeah, just having real boundaries. Yeah.

Moderator: Three things before I ask Bobby to pray for us—actually, two things. First, in the back, if you are a pastor, Banner of Truth is giving you a copy of J.C. Ryle's first volume on the Gospel of John. So that's generously given by Banner of Truth. Austin works for Banner of Truth—can you stand, Austin? Banner has a conference on the West Coast, so if you're interested in that, talk to Austin. So this is for pastors. If you're a church member, this is not for you, though we're glad that you're here. If you're a seminarian, we'll let you take one if you want. So they'll be on the back tables in the back. We're going to take a 15-minute break and we'll be back at 2:00. Bobby, can you pray for us?

Bobby Scott: Father, thank you for all that you've done for us in Christ and for giving us your Spirit so that we can faithfully shepherd our homes. For those of the brothers who are married and have children, I pray that, God, you would help us to diligently, Lord, lead our families and do so in grace.

Our enemy, Lord, is real, but Christ, you are greater. So help us to lead our homes in hope and with confidence, Lord, that as a means of your grace, you accomplish good through us for your glory. Bless our homes. In Christ's name I pray, amen.

Moderator: Amen.